Douganator!

e-evangelism...open for critiqueing

Well... i sorta start from the ground up... I've been obsessed with knowing as much as i can about what reality is for the last 3 years...

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There is so much going on i guess, its hard not to feel overwhelmed, but i guess I've had to make assumptions and create a framework from which to base how i percieve life

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On the whole i've found most people can't be fucked taking the first step, and when you ask them an opinion or dig into their belief system they shut down

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they would rather hide behind illusions, such as what they do at uni, who their boyfriend or girlfriend is... rather than actually share who they are...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Why make assumptions? I know they do, they're afraid to face the obvious - that they lack any solid proof for what, if anything they believe. Their whole lifes are designed to be one big distraction from the everloaming questions which provoke the most terrible of answers they're too afraid to face.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Who they really are? Maybe they're no one...Soulless are everywhere, souls aren't something we're born with, they're something we develop from curious natures, from searching and learning about the world and ourselves

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See what fascinates me is i find empathy for your quest for truth and nature, but you seem to have a closed mindset from the fact that you see anything that cannot be empirically proven as not being a part of reality

~Gothic Plague~ says:
That's because I keep my eyes focused on 'the real world' . . . lest all that is reality accuses me of dualism.

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but what is the real world?
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I mean how can you ever really prove anything>???

~Gothic Plague~ says:
What we can feel, touch, hear, smell, and see is the real world.
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so you base everything off sensory perception

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though can you truly trust your sensory percpetion 100%???

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Prove to who? . . . Trusting my sensoys perception is something of a non-issuse to me, because it's all I have, it's all any of us have, I'm not so close minded as to realise that as flawed beings we can never be certain of the validity of any of our perceptions of reasonings . . . but it's irrelevent, what we see before us, is all we're ever going to see - as far as any of can see.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
I base everything off my sensors and my thoughts - because in reality, that is all I really have.
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But if everything else is doubtful, why go about trying to dismantle peoples beliefs

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maybe they are true... sure they may not be proven by sensory perception, but is it worth erradicating beliefs such as christianity, because at the end of the day, you can't disprove it either...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Because what i'm saying can be prooven emperically - and to exist within, and make sense according to what we see in reality, where as their beliefs are full of assumption, unprovable guess-work, blatant lies which they refuse to correct...their beliefs at no point come into contact with reality as we human beings see it. They don't 'see' the things they profess to believe . . .
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Their beliefs exist solely in their heads - as dreams and imagingings which have long since been disprooven by those more intelligent and courageous then them, by people who stood by the truth, and didn't retreat into comforting delusion - their beliefs have been disprooven countless times, but they blinded themselves, they ignored and didn't listen, they hang people for speaking the truth.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Worth eradicting beliefs such as Christianity? Yes! And at the end of the day I most certainly can disproove the bulk of Christian belief systems, if by nothing else, internal inconsistancies. That's if anyone is willing to be rational and not dodge what i'm saying . . . Sad to say, too many Christians when sensing they'll be prooven wrong about something - change the subject.

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I will try not to change the subject... though alot of christian arguements admittedly do not make sense unless certain basic elements are taken as true, which do not rely on empirical evidence
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however i believe some of those elements can be derived from looking at reality and what has being proven empirically and then coming to rational conclusions
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such as the existence of a God, or at least a transcendent force maintaining or fine tuning the systems we exist in

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Or mistaking cause for affect...If I said that my cat created the universe, and the universe exists, therefore that universe's existance prooves my cat created it...that's the same line of unreason that Christians often use when citing existance itself as proof...
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Ignoring the fact that I don't even have a cat, or by the same vein, they don't even have a God apart from words on a page

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hmmm, well its what the words represent, if those ideas are true to what has happened and what is reality then God exists, otherwise then yes they are merely words on a page that have delluded a billion or so people

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Yet words are only as real as the meanings we attach to them.
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that being said, not, changing the topic, but moving away from a christian God, would you concede the possibility of a transendent being which cannot be empirically proven, but still exists not the less...
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Yeah, that's possible, of course. Just because I haven't seen one, doesn't mean one mighten be floating about somewhere.

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How do you come to terms with existence itself, that everything is so reliant on each other in such a finely tuned balance
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like the earth needs to turn at a certain speed, all parts of the body are vitally important for survival
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gravity needs to be finetuned to a ridiculous level or life wouldn't exist the way it does
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distance from the sun, laws of physics
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heaps of things
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all just random?

~Gothic Plague~ says:
*eats crackers* . . . I try not to worry about things like that, they're outside of my power to affect and so somewhat irrelevent. I'm more worried about coming to terms with the difficult tasks ahead of me.

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which are...
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though i still think that they are worth thinking about
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like for me it just seems more rational to go all this stuff is so finely tuned there is no way it could all come toghether without something controlling it.. and there i find God..

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Seems like an assumption to me, seeing 'creative design' in a world which is quite random and indifferent yet still held by cause and affect.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Those things are more the realm of material sciences, which don't appeal to me that much.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Honesty, if someone is controlling the universe, he's doing a chaotic job of it, especially when it comes to things done here on earth. Really, people find what they want to find, coming to whatever conclusion sounds most reasuring, and that feeling of reassurance, in this case, in the 'strength' of a God who's 'controlling' the universe makes it seem not so well, scary..

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granted...
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but some explanation of all these random conincidences coming toghether to form existence needs to be accounted for

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Why does it?

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well i think the soul yearns to discover why it all holds toghether... what allow things to be the way they are

~Gothic Plague~ says:
So it needs for a sense of satisfaction? But, that's needing for a desire...For comfort...That IS a search for comfort, and the search for comfort is not a search for truth, it's a search for 'comforting' truths.

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hmmm i think it is a search for truth
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its a knowledge that there is to many things that hold toghether perfectly to form reality without coincidence...
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maybe its not God, but its something...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Maybe it's Satan.

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Perhaps, the nature of satan would be to decieve the individual
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much like the matrix, the machines put people into a world in which they will be perfectly delluded
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yet it is for their own selfish search for more power and world dominance that they do so

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Selfish, as aposed to what?

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actually thats just their nature i guess
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they can't really be selfish because they are machines... but thats beside the point... i still think its God, you can disagree, but you can't disprove it either... i also think that there is enough empirical evidence to support my case, though i admit that it could be interpreted in different ways that lead to entirely different conclusions
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so i guess i could never expect anyone to believe what i do
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i just enjoy hearing how other people percieve them, the more diverse from my opinion usually the better...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
People are perfectly deluded, they have to be, to retain their sanity, because the moment they become aware enough to realise they're going to die - the horror of that realisation 'forces' them to invent fantasies in order to soove them to prevent a total mental break-down.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
I can disproove it.

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how...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Do you believe that any of the Greek God's exist? That the tales of Zeus and company were factual?

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nope i don't believe them...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Why not?

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because, (and i know your gonna slam this arguement, because you could perhaps accuse christianity of the same thing) zeus and company seems like a product of the times
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i agree, people cling to flawed belief systems such as polytheism and mythology in order to quell their ignorance
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and they do fabricate realities for themselves to include things which are not their in order to go through life more comfortably
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wasn't it like mao or somthing who said "religion is the opiate of the masses"???

~Gothic Plague~ says:
I'm not sure who, but yes, the religious aspects of it, the art, and dogma, the cermony are all emotional satisfiers, so few actually examine the belief systems or the philosophy of the religions they profess to agree with and follow - what they're really following is the fear and strength tango that's dished out by the preachers

Don't say in a sentence what u can say in a word, don't say in a word what u can in a , don't say in a what u can in a says:
agreed

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Are you saying that the Bible itself wasn't a product of the times, that it wasn't written by men, just as all those other 'holy' books and stories of gods were?
~Gothic Plague~ says:
And don't people cling to flawed people systems like Christianity to 'quell' their ignorance? Doing the exact same thing as those other religions... is there a difference?
~Gothic Plague~ says:
*belief systems >.>
Don't say in a sentence what u can say in a word, don't say in a word what u can in a , don't say in a what u can in a says:
Well faith i guess is the difference...
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Are you saying all those other religion's beliefs in other gods aren't taken on faith aswell?

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I'm saying on a personal level its faith
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all of them point to a God...

~Gothic Plague~ says:
If you take a trip into an insane asylum, you'll quickly realise that faith on any level is proof of nothing. I'm sure all of the Greek's personal faith for what they were ignorant about in life pointed to Zeus aswell.

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every single belief system in the world, whether written down or personal has an element of faith

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Yes... But what about systems of knowledge and facts? They have elements of rationality, and reason, and sanity.
~Gothic Plague~ says:
They have methods of discovering the truth which can be prooven to exist and make sense in the world we live in
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they still rely on faith though and assumptions
~Gothic Plague~ says:
What's 'faith'?

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even if that is as simple as beileving that the laws of physics will be the same tomorrow as they are today
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or that the sun will rise...
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though granted, we can only interpet whats given to us through our senses and make a framework of knowledge which appears to fit in with our experience and hold it as true until proven otherwise

~Gothic Plague~ says:
Well, according to the Bible: 'faith is a belief in things unseen' . . . so those systems of knowledge and facts don't require it, and rarely have it, we don't need faith for what we can see.

Don't say in a sentence what u can say in a word, don't say in a word what u can in a , don't say in a what u can in a says:
we need faith in our senses though
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we need to believe that wat we are seeing is actually there

~Gothic Plague~ says:
I don't agree with that, I think that's a very limited way of looking at things, saying we need 'faith' and 'believe' for everything, as some way to justify and re-affirm that 'faith' is the difference between your religion and other religions... but what was the real difference.. *sigh*
~Gothic Plague~ says:
This is no difference, once you understand why you yourself don't believe in Zeus, you'll know why I don't believe in your God
~Gothic Plague~ says:
Once you understand the meanings of faith, belief, knowledge, facts, truth, and lies, and all those words imply, and what they mean to us as rational beings who exist in reality..

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I do understand... though perhaps they mean different things to me than they do to you

~Gothic Plague~ says:
I don't need to believe anything, and I don't take anything on faith... I doubt all things, doubt leads to questions - the only way to find answers

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but alot of the times there are not answers to be found

~Gothic Plague~ says:
That will not stop me from trying to find them.

posted by Douganator @ 9:39 PM